Curse

glountz · May 05, 2006, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Digitalbath, you shouldn't bother typing so long thread when you basically offer no evidence nor data to add to the discussion.
The data gave by Siren say it: Warrior DPS>Sins DPS. No real proof on Spike capabilities.
I don't know if this data is reliable, but if he used the same damage calculation method for each class/weapon it's fine for me.
Due to IAS, basically warriors spike like Frenzy+Backbreaker+Crushing blow+Normal attack is quite more worrying than a normal Unsuspecting +whatever +Twisting fangs.
I am monking a lot in RA/TA these days to unlocks PvP skills/runes/equipment for the ritualists. I fear hammer warrs like hell. Not sins. A single guardian screw them up, and a little Mend ailment destroys completely their condition stack for minimal energy investment.
You are basically saying that the sins are fine the way they are, talking about "design" or "fitting their role", with references to other games. We don't care if a sin looks good or not.
In serious PvP, only efficience prevails. Guild wars has a huge competitive part in it. Balance issues, which can completely be ignored in PVE, are terribly central in PvP. By their low armor, sins can't melee as well as warriors. They are easily shutdown as well.
Minimum would be that their spike was so terrible that it would leave someone dead after it, but it is not even the case, or that their DPS was much higher it is now.
This is a balance thread, not an assassin's killing thread. You're mistaken. We would like sins were really a huge PvP threat, forcing a new way to think and play around. The fact is that until now, they are not.

Xasew · May 05, 2006, 12:49 PM // 12:49

When Twisting Fangs was in Dagger Mastery and Temple Strike good, I was actually quite impressed by the damage Assassins could do. I knew Temple would receive a hit from the nerf stick, but not that hard(I mean 25 sec recharge wth?). Now the only thing Assassins really do is maybe Shadow Shroud/Shroud of Silence, some NPC killing and maybe running the flag.
Can't really see them as damage dealers.

dag_nefzen · May 05, 2006, 01:33 PM // 13:33

A lot of the same criticisms people are making here could be levelled at the ranger profession. They have a low dps compared to warriors, "weak" armor and limited spike ability in isolation.

The way I see assassins being using is as another element of a greater spike. Warrior calls an adrenaline spike, assassin shadow steps to target and unloads his combo. No need to wait for 2 people to charge and sync their adrenaline... as soon as a single warrior is charged you're good to go.

It's true, Aegis, Guardian and Ward Against Melee can mess up assassins, and yet the same things are equally applicable to warriors. They stop adrenaline build up, mitigate damage and slow up a warrior adren spike if not block it. Assassins have a number of attacks that cannot be blocked or evaded and Unseen Fury and Way of the Fox (which admittedly has a horrible recharge). How many warrior skills are there that can bypass Wards and monk prot?

I'm not saying they're not underpowered, it's quite possible that they are... but I don't think comparing raw dps between a warrior and assassin is going to be terribly useful. Warriors will always be the staple providers of damage, hence their status as a "core" profession but people saying assassins are useless already is very premature in my opinion.

jonnybegood · May 05, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

well I see assasins doing more damage some times and visa versa, but I (for PVE) use a frensin(frenzy+assasin=frensin) and the spead is outrageous. along with death blossom the it can really do some dmg.

oh and a sin without spiritwalk is "un-enlightend".

glountz · May 05, 2006, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by dag_nefzen

A lot of the same criticisms people are making here could be levelled at the ranger profession. They have a low dps compared to warriors, "weak" armor and limited spike ability in isolation.

You're kidding.
Rangers have low DPS due to their low fire rate.
For their spike ability, that's another story, they have really good spike capabilities.
They don't have low armor, only low armor against physical. Against Elemental they are the king.
They are ranged. They can hit from far before anything can hit them. More, some bows can have tremendous range compared to spell range. They don't have to run. If they had to, thay have monstruous running skills.
They can interrupt like hell.
They can spam their skills with high expertise.
They can trap.
They can Bunny thump and have really good pressure with their pet.
What else can I say.... Yes Rangers have low DPS. But that's not their primary role. They are not advertised as killing machines. They are advertised as interrupters, beastmasters, trappers, ranged spikers. And they completely fit in any of these roles.

We didn't say Assassins were useless. Only that they weren't able to achieve what they supposed to do better than a warrior would.

houndofhell93 · May 05, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

every one that i know says assasins are the new wamos i say not posable if a wamo would take alot of dmg say 300 dmg and they had 325 then the assasin would take a suficient amount more there not made to tank there made to run in hit or kill and run out. i use recall to get out that way u can get out no mater what u see its fail proof unless ur a nub and dont know how ot play.

dag_nefzen · May 05, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by dag_nefzen

the ranger profession... have a limited spike ability in isolation.

I'd just like to requote myself. In isolation, how much spike damage can a ranger actually put down? You really think they do that much more damage than an assassin?

In a team with 4 spike rangers you will obviously do a ridiculous amount of damage.

And to be honest, armor vs. elemental damage is not really massively impressive when you face very few elementalists in PvP, barr Warders and HP/Prodigy spammers. If you face an elementalist in some kind of spike build it's more than likely Obs Flame which ignores armor anyway.

What exactly are assassins supposed to do better than warriors out of interest?

I said myself that they may need improving, but saying that already? Premature.

Siren · May 05, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

I don't know if this data is reliable, but if he used the same damage calculation method for each class/weapon it's fine for me.

Wasn't me who did the testing and such. The materials came from GWOnline.net. I had quoted someone previously in the thread who'd mentioned it, and who had asked for a copy+paste from there. I'm a member of both sites, so after the GWOnline servers went back up, I grabbed it.

So yeah. I don't have the kind of time to do testing of that nature. lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

The data gave by Siren say it: Warrior DPS>Sins DPS.

And not necessarily:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Data

Table 4: Table 4: Base Weapon DPS for 16 ranks in weapon mastery

** Note: Hammer, Axe, and Sword values are possible ONLY for Warrior primaries. Dagger values are possible ONLY for Assassin primaries. Bow values are possible ONLY for Ranger primaries.
** Note: only Assassins can hit 40% crit rate or 34% crit rate. Non-assassins have no access to Critical Strikes and Critical Eye.

Code:
Hammer Base DPS (21% crit): 20.8
Dagger Base DPS (40% crit): 19.5
Axe Base DPS (21% crit): 18.7
Dagger Base DPS (34% crit): 18.6
Sword Base DPS (21% crit): 18.3
Dagger Base DPS (21% crit): 16.8
Short/Flat Bow Base DPS (21% crit): 14.5
Horn Bow Base DPS (21% crit): 11.8
Long/Composite Bow Base DPS (21% crit): 11.6

Apart from Hammers, Assassins can achieve higher DPS than the other Warrior weapons at 16 Weapon mastery.

What's also interesting is how the Hammer DPS there is not that much greater than Dagger DPS running at a 40% Crit rate. It's essentially only a 1-point difference, which I don't think is enough of a gap to say this is an open-and-shut case regarding the two classes' respective DPS potentials.

And even more interesting is how Assassin DPS is pretty high up on that chart. Even at a 34% Crit rate (Critical Eye running, presumably, boosts it to that exact rate), the difference between Axe and Dagger is 0.1, which is, when all things considered, indistinguishable, I think.

Also worth noting is the 40% Crit rate Dagger DPS is higher than the Axe DPS, which is pretty damn surprising, isn't it?

Finally, the only time when Dagger DPS is abysmal is when one is running at a 21% Crit rate, which most Assassins won't do. Smart Assassins, at least. Critical Eye is God. You'd find that in most builds, because it's just too breathtaking not to bring, apart in experimental Deadly Arts touch builds.

So...there's some data here to very easily support the notion that Assassins can match or exceed (most) Warrior DPS, or at the very least, have the potential to.

EDIT: And Dag raises a very good point regarding Assassin skills being able to bypass pretty much every type of defense you could throw at them. A HamWar has all of one or two skills that can bypass prot/evasion. Assassins have nearly an entire skill attribute of them.

glountz · May 05, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by dag_nefzen

In a team with 4 spike rangers you will obviously do a ridiculous amount of damage.

Gah.
Timed ranger spike in TA is one of the best build in there. You kill a guy in less than one second, thanks to spirits, spiking shots and of course an order secondary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Also worth noting is the 40% Crit rate Dagger DPS is higher than the Axe DPS, which is pretty damn surprising, isn't it?

Finally, the only time when Dagger DPS is abysmal is when one is running at a 21% Crit rate, which most Assassins won't do. Smart Assassins, at least. Critical Eye is God. You'd find that in most builds, because it's just too breathtaking not to bring, apart in experimental Deadly Arts touch builds.

No, no and no, I can't follow you on this point. You can't bring a skill effect into account.
So, to outdamage warrs, you need 16 Dagg mastery AND 13 Critical Strike AND Critical Eye?
So if you take into account skills, i take this one from warriors:
Primal Rage
For 10 seconds, all of your attacks have an additional 10...46% chance of being critical hits and have 20% armor penetration. Primal Rage disables all skills for 10 seconds.

Okay I cheat here it's elite. But then with that I've dreadful DPS. You can't take into account skills for this balance discussion between sins and wars, because if you do, you'll have to compare warrs ones as well.

fallot · May 05, 2006, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Edit: Even the numbers I've posted are probably not correct, as they assume a lot of things. However, they are based on formulae that I believe to be correct, rather than SonofRah's -AL formula for critical strike damage. Therfore they are meant to be a comparison, and not actual DPS values. If anyone would like to correct these, please do.

These numbers dont seem right. I never looked at it closely, but it is based on SonofRah's damage article, which happens to contain a lot of errors and inconsistencies (for example it claimed that the AL from shields only applied to the front of the target, when it is global). So I used the calculator with Ensign's forumlae and achieved the following DPS numbers. I took values for critical strikes at 16 weapon mastery as 20, which the calculator lists at default.

Quote:

With 16 in a weapon attribute:

Hammer Base DPS: 24.3
Axe Base DPS: 21.8
Sword Base DPS: 21.34

I assume 16 DM adds a 32% chance to double strike, the crit numbers at 16 DM are once again taken as 20% (guildwiki lists them as 22.9%, you may recalculate based on those figues yourself, for comparison's sake 20 should be fine.)

Quote:

Edit: Corrected.

Dagger Base DPS (39% crit): 22.15
Dagger Base DPS (33% crit): 21.19
Dagger Base DPS (20% crit): 19.12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

So...there's some data here to very easily support the notion that Assassins can match or exceed (most) Warrior DPS, or at the very least, have the potential to.

Thats the thing, they don't have the potential to. To apply this DPS you need to be attacking all the time, which an Assassin wont be doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And even more interesting is how Assassin DPS is pretty high up on that chart. Even at a 34% Crit rate (Critical Eye running, presumably, boosts it to that exact rate), the difference between Axe and Dagger is 0.1, which is, when all things considered, indistinguishable, I think.

34% Crit rate is Dagger Mastery 16 (20-21% rate, shaktiboi uses 21) and 13 critical strikes (13%): 21% + 13% = 34% critical rate with DM 16 and CS 13. The value of 40% is obtained with Critical Eye.

Bear in mind that these numbers are for critical strikes at 13.

Siren · May 05, 2006, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

No, no and no, I can't follow you on this point. You can't bring a skill effect into account.

Okay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Dagger Base DPS (39% crit): 21.21
Dagger Base DPS (33% crit): 20.29
Dagger Base DPS (20% crit): 18.45

That's without skills boosting anything, I'd assume. And the difference between those numbers and Warrior DPS isn't so drastic. In fact, when all is said and done, I think that difference will just about disappear when we have extensive and thorough combat-testing of Assassins and Warriors in similar environments, because we're going to find that Assassins have major killing power, just like Warriors do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Thats the thing, they don't have the potential to. To apply this DPS you need to be attacking all the time, which an Assassin wont be doing.

Yeah, they get in, unload, and get out, but why wouldn't they be attacking a target all the time in other situations? I mean, I don't think it's wise to shrug-off Assassins here, because what I'm expecting to happen is something like the following:

Assassin gets in, ganks his target, then while his skills are recharging, goes about autoattacking random targets. He'll be attacking all the time, which will achieve the DPS, and he'll also provide an explosive spike when his skills are recharged, and most of the attack skills recharge fairly quickly.

dag_nefzen · May 05, 2006, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Quote:

Originally Posted by dag_nefzen

In a team with 4 spike rangers you will obviously do a ridiculous amount of damage.

Gah.
Timed ranger spike in TA is one of the best build in there. You kill a guy in less than one second, thanks to spirits, spiking shots and of course an order secondary.

When I said a ridiculous amount of damage I meant ridiculously high amount of damage... not low.

Egg Rollz · May 05, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

just for kicks, i took a the Paladin template (no mods to it except weapon/shield/stats) and went to RA. i fought a few sins. it was basically a stalemate. the sins took my hp down from the start while i was building up adren. and the came my bursts. as most of you said, sins can deal dmg from the start, but warriors can burst, and surprise the enemy. i took out 3 sins, while only 5 took me down. those were one on ones 90% of the time. mind you i just used a basic template

Egg Rollz · May 05, 2006, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Also, warriors have been nerfed to hell. You just need to wait until sins are also nerfed to hell; it has already begun :P

fallot · May 05, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Edit: I forgot to mention an important thing, so I thought it would put it in the beginning of this post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

the difference between those numbers and Warrior DPS isn't so drastic. In fact, when all is said and done, I think that difference will just about disappear when we have extensive and thorough combat-testing of Assassins and Warriors in similar environments, because we're going to find that Assassins have major killing power, just like Warriors do.

There has been one consideration that I didn't make in those calculations. Its that Warriors can use Frenzy (outside of spikes) with some degree of safety. That increases the DPS gap by a large margin. Assassins cannot use Frenzy for the same purpose, they may use Tiger's Fury, but that is energy intensive for anything but a ranger and Assassins do need their energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Assassin gets in, ganks his target, then while his skills are recharging, goes about autoattacking random targets. He'll be attacking all the time, which will achieve the DPS, and he'll also provide an explosive spike when his skills are recharged, and most of the attack skills recharge fairly quickly.

You have to consider where exactly those random targets are. You may attempt to hit the opposing team's warriors, but you will make minimum progress due to their natural armor.

Or you could attempt to hit midline and backline characters, which requires you to extend away from your monks, which will basically cause you to die because in the end you are just a slightly tougher squishie. This is a minor exaggeration, but an Assassin wandering into your backline trying to hit random things is asking for a spike in his face.

But see, I dont have a big problem with them not attacking targets between combos if those combos are good enough to warrant the inactivity between them.

This is the crux of my problem with Assassins. If they are constrained by maximum AL to be spike/disruption characters, why aren't those spikes quick, deadly and energy efficient ? They should be considerably better than the warrior's who offers a fat load of damage in addition to the spike. They should be better than elementalists, who offer a lot of powered utility along with their spike. But are they ? The Warrior's is quicker and more damaging (in that very short duration of course, an Assassin chaining attack skills over 7-10 seconds can outdamage this, but its easy to understand why that isn't good). The elementalist's has range, and the character has a lot to offer besides it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Egg Rollz

Also, warriors have been nerfed to hell. You just need to wait until sins are also nerfed to hell; it has already begun :P

What ? How have warrior's been nerfed in any way ? Their Factions skills are quite reasonable, and their armor sets just recieved boosts.

Vengal · May 05, 2006, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

Edit: This is the crux of my problem with Assassins. If they are constrained by maximum AL to be spike/disruption characters, why aren't those spikes quick, deadly and energy efficient ? They should be considerably better than the warrior's who offers a fat load of damage in addition to the spike. They should be better than elementalists, who offer a lot of powered utility along with their spike. But are they ? The Warrior's is quicker and more damaging (in that very short duration of course, an Assassin chaining attack skills over 7-10 seconds can outdamage this, but its easy to understand why that isn't good). The elementalist's has range, and the character has a lot to offer besides it.

I was thinking the same thing today. Its a matter of Risk vs Reward.

As an Assassin, your forced to take the risk of going into an enemy backline to do melee damage, despite the fact that your soft target.

Your forced to take the risk of using an incredibly rigid system of easily disruptable attack combos to do good damage.

None of these things, in and of themselves would be a bad thing........If the reward matched the risk.

Dont get me wrong, I love the Assassin. Its my new favorite class. But the damage off these combos is still not up to par with what a War can do. And untill it does, methinks the sin will be relegated to a flag runner.

DieInBasra · May 05, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

A lot of the same criticisms people are making here could be levelled at the ranger profession. They have a low dps compared to warriors, "weak" armor and limited spike ability in isolation.

Yes, but rangers can opperate from the midlines and have alot of DPS tricks, and just normal utility, as well as being able to interrupt almost too regularly. In regards to spike, they can hit over 120(I've hit well over 150, but that was with horn and vamp) with a RTW and Dual/Mauders->Savage/Punishing which is quite respectable if you realize they can repeat it every 5 seconds and have the benifit of range.

But I'd really like another referance to Dagger DPS.

Quote:

It's true, Aegis, Guardian and Ward Against Melee can mess up assassins, and yet the same things are equally applicable to warriors. They stop adrenaline build up, mitigate damage and slow up a warrior adren spike if not block it. Assassins have a number of attacks that cannot be blocked or evaded and Unseen Fury and Way of the Fox (which admittedly has a horrible recharge). How many warrior skills are there that can bypass Wards and monk prot?

Not just can mess up, have an 87.5% chance of not landing the deep wound, so it's very nearly a "will". At least the warrior still has a 50% chance to spike, though yeah, his adren will be slowed.
A warrior has War's Cunning, besides IB and Pure Strike. None of those are all that great, except IB, but neither are Unseen or WOTF. Unseen makes you have to lose the IAS, making your spike pretty damn slow, and relys on a condition. WOTF isn't half bad but you better hope they don't catch on and strip it.

Siren · May 05, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by fallot

There has been one consideration that I didn't make in those calculations. Its that Warriors can use Frenzy (outside of spikes) with some degree of safety. That increases the DPS gap by a large margin. Assassins cannot use Frenzy for the same purpose, they may use Tiger's Fury, but that is energy intensive for anything but a ranger and Assassins do need their energy.

Okay, by introducting Frenzy, you've just opened up the Assassin skill lines to aid in Assassin DPS, and getting a 40% Crit rate from Critical Eye, in addition to an impressive chance to double-strike (Locust's Fury, perhaps) is going to be insane. Not to mention Vamp mods adding to it.

Plus, Assassins don't need something like Tiger's Fury, or really, any IAS in general, because they've got latent abilities like doublestrikes to push the limits on how fast they can attack, because with a doublestrike, they can get two attacks in simultaneously in that 1.33 seconds (or 1.0 seconds, depending on what Dagger Mastery is doing exactly).

I don't know man. I think Assassins are certainly going to be a lot more dangerous with just regular auto-attacks than most are giving them credit for.

Quote:

You have to consider where exactly those random targets are. You may attempt to hit the opposing team's warriors, but you will make minimum progress due to their natural armor.

Or you could attempt to hit midline and backline characters, which requires you to extend away from your monks, which will basically cause you to die because in the end you are just a slightly tougher squishie. This is a minor exaggeration, but an Assassin wandering into your backline trying to hit random things is asking for a spike in his face.

But no self-respecting Assassin should ever "wander" into a backline with no means of escape.

Return is going to be one of the major important skills, and I could see Aura of Displacement being used, as well.

Incidentally, I can't wait to get my hands on that one, because Shadow Stepping to your target foe, being able to maintain a specific escape position, and having control over when you escape (barring enchant removal, which, by the way, will be fecking amazing--Desbreko and I were fooling around with Drain Enchant and Recall last night, LOL)...dude, man...I can't wait until Monday. ^_^

But getting back to my point, heh. Stupid Assassin players are going to make major mistakes, like forgetting where they are in the field, going in without an exit strategy, etc. Smart Assassin players will wreak mass chaos, I'm sure of it.

Quote:

But see, I dont have a big problem with them not attacking targets between combos if those combos are good enough to warrant the inactivity between them.

A guildie and I were recently doing some testing in a 1v1 guild scrimmage, and he hit me with a combo that tore me apart. Shadow Refuge (only for the enchant)-->Golden Phoenix-->Fox Fangs-->Horns of the Ox-->Falling Spider-->Twisting Fangs

Now, yeah, 1v1 isn't accurate and all that jazz, but if we're trying to see if Assassin combos are good enough to warrant inactivity behind them...Horns of the Ox by itself did easily 100 damage to me. I saw the dual attack numbers pop-up, 49 and 59. Desbreko possibly got a Crit on one of those dual attacks there (and if those numbers weren't even Criticals? It's gonna get really nuts with Criticals). Then when I was on the ground, he followed up with Falling Spider, which hit me with an absurd amount of damage, as well.

And what's really remarkable about that entire chain--well, two things that were remarkable about that combo, was one, how fast he could go through it, and two, seeing dual attack damage like that, with him maybe getting a Crit on one of the dual attack hits, and then just thinking about how 100+Deep Wound would do to any type of squishy...is scary as hell.

In one attack (Twisting Fangs), the Assassin can just about out-spike Evis. I've had Evis hit me for 170. I've seen it hit for 150-180 at any given moment. The Twisting Fangs hit me for a little over 200, because you've got a dual attack working there, each dagger hitting for 50-ish damage, and then the Deep Wound added on.

And sure, you could turn around and say the required attack chain limits the effectiveness of such an attack, because you're not able to use it immediately, but...once people really figure out the ways to get around the attack chain, you're going to see some insane shit, I'm sure. If certain off-hand attacks function in the manner some people here suspect, some really creative players probably won't even need lead attacks, and some might not even need off-hand attacks eventually.

Quote:

This is the crux of my problem with Assassins. If they are constrained by maximum AL to be spike/disruption characters, why aren't those spikes quick, deadly and energy efficient?

That's the thing, because when the build is designed properly, the spikes are quick, deadly, and energy efficient. Assassins are energy machines.

Quote:

They should be considerably better than the warrior's who offers a fat load of damage in addition to the spike. They should be better than elementalists, who offer a lot of powered utility along with their spike. But are they ? The Warrior's is quicker and more damaging (in that very short duration of course, an Assassin chaining attack skills over 7-10 seconds can outdamage this, but its easy to understand why that isn't good). The elementalist's has range, and the character has a lot to offer besides it.

I suppose I should have just included this paragraph in the previous quotation, where I related my experience of having Twisting Fangs thrust into me, heh. Think about a combo that bypasses the lead, goes straight into the Off-hand, then slams the target with the Dual Attack like Twisting Fangs. And if we really want to get evil with that spike damage...bringing along Impale with reasonably high Deadly Arts will stack on another 60 damage to that 200 from Twisting Fangs.

And in fact, if there's a concern about the 260 from Impale+Twisting Fangs not killing a target, the Lead (if used) and Off-hand serve to soften him up.

So it all works out.

Vermilion Okeanos · May 05, 2006, 09:45 PM // 21:45

So it seem the argument is quite simple.

Bring in the buff -> Assassin win
Take out the buff -> Warrior win

And you guys are just arguing whether it is fair to bring in the buff or not.

fallot · May 05, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Plus, Assassins don't need something like Tiger's Fury, or really, any IAS in general, because they've got latent abilities like doublestrikes to push the limits on how fast they can attack, because with a doublestrike, they can get two attacks in simultaneously in that 1.33 seconds (or 1.0 seconds, depending on what Dagger Mastery is doing exactly).

Double strikes were factored into the DPS calculations. And they do need the IAS, to spike with attack skills. One attack every 1.33 seconds, regardless of the damage, is a poor spike. You cant get double-strikes on attack skills either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

In one attack (Twisting Fangs), the Assassin can just about out-spike Evis. I've had Evis hit me for 170. I've seen it hit for 150-180 at any given moment. The Twisting Fangs hit me for a little over 200, because you've got a dual attack working there, each dagger hitting for 50-ish damage, and then the Deep Wound added on.

Can you give me a combo that can outspike Eviscerate + Executioner's under Frenzy (2 seconds, ~300 damage) without any tricks ? That means no pre-applying hexes etc. Nothing but attack skills, within that 2 second timeframe ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

And sure, you could turn around and say the required attack chain limits the effectiveness of such an attack, because you're not able to use it immediately, but...once people really figure out the ways to get around the attack chain, you're going to see some insane shit, I'm sure. If certain off-hand attacks function in the manner some people here suspect, some really creative players probably won't even need lead attacks, and some might not even need off-hand attacks eventually.

I wouldn't call it "insane shit" but this is the way to go. Golden Phoenix Strike, Palm Strike, these are all good skills. I'm uncertain how you plan to forego off-hand attacks or at least skills that count as off-hands though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

But no self-respecting Assassin should ever "wander" into a backline with no means of escape.

Return is going to be one of the major important skills, and I could see Aura of Displacement being used, as well.

This was about standing ground and attacking to apply DPS between skill chains was it not ? Why are we talking about escape ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Smart Assassin players will wreak mass chaos, I'm sure of it.

This is what I think: Smart Assassins will not be assassins, but */A's using the mobility offered by the Assassin skill lines to do other things. We are already seeing this now.

Edit: Ok, for the proposed combo, you may use any hexes etc. that you desire. But you will have to add their cast times into the 2 second window. Its only fair, since they are a part of your spike.

Edit 2: Missed something again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Okay, by introducting Frenzy, you've just opened up the Assassin skill lines to aid in Assassin DPS, and getting a 40% Crit rate from Critical Eye, in addition to an impressive chance to double-strike (Locust's Fury, perhaps) is going to be insane. Not to mention Vamp mods adding to it.

Axe Base DPS w/ Frenzy = 32.6
Dagger Base DPS with CS 13 and Critical Eye = 22.15
Dagger Base DPS with CS 13, Critical Eye and Locust's Fury = 31.38

But its all about the application again. And my previous numbers for Dagger DPS turned out to be incorrect as I made one fatal oversight, let me correct them.